Spirit · 8 episodes
Psychedelics & Plant Medicine for entrepreneurs
The guests here split roughly into two camps: people who found altered states through breathwork, hypnotherapy, and frequency work, and people who found them through actual psilocybin, MDMA, or LSD journeys. What they agree on is more interesting than the method. Both camps say the same mechanism is at work — you have to get past the analytical, comparing, judging part of the brain that made you a successful founder in the first place, because that part is exactly what blocks the healing. Niraj Naik gets there through breath holds and intermittent hypoxia. David Kahl and the Journeymen Collective get there through guided mushroom ceremonies. Both describe the same wall: entrepreneurs are trained to control, judge, and optimize, and that training has to be suspended, not overridden, for anything to shift.
Where they genuinely disagree is on necessity. Scott Omelianuk and David Kahl both treat psychedelics as a legitimate accelerant past years of talk therapy, done properly, with facilitation and integration. Niraj Naik and Don Estes argue you can get comparable or 'more profound' altered states without touching a substance at all — through breath, sound, or synchronized sensory input. Nobody in these conversations claims one path is fake and the other real. The consistent warning across every guest who has actually guided people through this work is that the substance or technique is not the point. Skipping preparation or integration is where people get hurt or just relapse into their old patterns with a good story attached.
The other thread that runs through nearly every conversation: the crisis that sends founders looking for this work usually isn't the failure everyone expects. It's the identity crash after success — after the exit, after the title, after the thing that was supposed to fix the emptiness didn't. David Kahl said leaving his $100M company was harder than building it. Christina Woods sees the same pattern in imposter syndrome clients who've done everything right and still don't feel it landed.
What holds across every conversation
- •If you're considering a psilocybin or MDMA journey for business burnout, budget real time for integration afterward — the insight fades fast without it, and old default patterns reassert themselves.
- •Breath-hold practice (60-90 seconds, done consistently) can produce altered-state benefits comparable to psychedelics without legal risk or a facilitator, according to Cambridge-studied protocols.
- •Vet any guide or facilitator on preparation and integration structure, not just the journey itself — a session with no before or after is the version that goes wrong.
- •If success hasn't produced the internal feeling you expected, that gap is common among high performers and usually points to an identity built on external validation, not a personal failing.
- •Notice when 'control, comparison, judgment' — your operating mode as a founder — is the thing blocking a specific relationship or decision, not just an asset in the business.
- •The hardest psychological transition for founders is often after an exit or big win, not during the grind — plan support for that phase, not just the building phase.
Breathwork as a psychedelic substitute
Intermittent hypoxia and rhythmic breathing can produce altered states that researchers compared directly to psilocybin, without any substance involved.
“So intermittent hypoxia is the magic of breathwork. When you hold your breath for 60 to 90 seconds, you invoke a positive state, a positive stress on the body, and it creates an adaptive change to having less oxygen in the body.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 9:45· listen →
“When you hold your breath, right, for a long enough time, we create intermittent hypoxia and you reduce the oxygen supply to that mitochondria. You will make that mitochondria wake up and go, oh my God, I'm running out of oxygen. I need to do a spring clean.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 13:00· listen →
“The responses were as profound or more profound than the kind of psychedelic insights you get, um, like oneness, connection, feeling like you've been channeled by God and all that stuff, as you would from a big dose of psychedelics.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 15:31· listen →
“When you hold it to as long as I was saying, intermittent hypoxia, you produce ADOSE. ADOSE standing for anandamide, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins. So this makes you feel naturally high.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 30:37· listen →
Why founders are hard clients
The traits that build companies — control, comparison, judgment — are precisely what has to be surrendered for a journey to actually work.
“You need to be narcissistic enough to think your idea is the idea everyone needs. You have to be Machiavellian enough to, with maybe just a few dollars in your pocket, get to the end results and game the system for you. And you'd have to be enough of a psychopath to push the people who work with you as far as you can without pushing them over the line.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 3:59· listen →
“We as entrepreneurs and leaders, that's what gets us where we are, is we think we have this energy above our neck most of the time. We're comparing, we're contrasting, we're judging, doing all the things that make our companies better, that make us better. And so I have to coach them to let go of that and to relax and be vulnerable and release expectations.”
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide · 32:05· listen →
“I would just say, don't just wander into a field and think you've identified right mushrooms, if that's the way you get them, because that can kill you. That part can kill you. But to be curious, to go into it with an open mind and open heart, and to give up control for a minute and just see where you go.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 22:44· listen →
“The mushroom is a bit of a house cleaning mechanism that helps you to make decisions and choices to move forward. So the vessel, the human vessel, is sort of like stronger and cleaner as you move forward in decision making.”
Conscious Leadership Through Psychedelic Journeys · 13:07· listen →
The identity crash after success
Losing a company, or getting everything you set out to get, exposes a fusion of self and achievement that founders rarely notice until it's gone.
“After it happened, it was probably the most difficult period of my life. I mean, even more difficult than growing and scaling the company because like, as I said, when you're like, when you're in it, John, you don't realize how much you're in it and how much of your every living drop of energy is going into it.”
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide · 15:57· listen →
“You don't get the journey you want, you get the journey you need. And so my journey was nothing like what was— nothing came up that gave me any indication about what was next for me. What came up for me were a lot of things from my past that I thought I had processed, but I didn't process.”
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide · 20:26· listen →
“When our internal sense of self is not aligned with what's going on, usually we have a lot of success on the outside and we just literally need to upgrade what's going on on the inside. So our sense of self hasn't matched the great, great things we've done on the outside.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 1:22· listen →
“They'll usually almost always will come out, why am I not happy? Or why do I not feel fulfilled when I've done all these things? But they really feel guilty even bringing it up because they know they're fortunate and they know that they have everything that most people want and desire.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 34:05· listen →
Guided journeys as therapy accelerant
Psilocybin, MDMA, and ketamine work, when properly facilitated, gets described repeatedly as compressing years of talk therapy into a single session.
“I would say one day with psilocybin makes me feel like I've done a year or two of talk therapy. I feel like that is how the progress trajectory is. It's an accelerator like none I've experienced.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 26:40· listen →
“I like to tell people that I won't say I'm a good person, but I'm a much better person than I was before I started. I will say in a leadership context at work, I'm probably 80% less of an asshole than I was.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 10:05· listen →
“There are very esteemed entrepreneurs like Blake Mycoskie and Tim Ferriss who have donated tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to psychedelic research because they think it's so important.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 29:51· listen →
“It's a purpose-driven journey that you're not just coming in to experience the medicine. There's a purpose for your stepping into and on this path.”
Conscious Leadership Through Psychedelic Journeys · 8:44· listen →
Preparation and integration are non-negotiable
Every guide interviewed says the same thing: the journey without structure around it is either dangerous or wasted.
“I would just say, don't just wander into a field and think you've identified right mushrooms, if that's the way you get them, because that can kill you. That part can kill you. But to be curious, to go into it with an open mind and open heart, and to give up control for a minute and just see where you go.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 22:44· listen →
“The worst thing that can happen is you're gonna cry. The worst thing that can happen is that you're gonna feel some of the pain that you haven't processed because our culture hasn't actually taught us how to do that.”
Conscious Leadership Through Psychedelic Journeys · 21:29· listen →
“It's not a vacation, it's not a retreat. There's nothing to retreat from. We often talk about it's let, lean, learn. You let go of what you're meant to let go of. You lean into the challenges that show up and you learn from it.”
Conscious Leadership Through Psychedelic Journeys · 30:44· listen →
“He came out of that journey just crying and very in touch with this realization that he needs to let go more and let people be who they are because they're all, they all have their own ways of expressing love and affection and respect and get out of his own way of how he thought he should be happy.”
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide · 43:12· listen →
Non-drug routes to altered states
Frequency, sound, and synchronized sensory input are offered as alternate doors into the same territory psychedelics open, minus the legal and physical risk.
“For me, it basically started in the '60s when I was a chemistry major in college. And there was about a year or so before they made LSD illegal. And so we were just making it and doing it. And I freaking loved it. I wanted to live in that state for the rest of my life. I could, I can remember running circles around my professors and stuff like that.”
Don Estes: How Words and Waveforms Shape Reality · 24:09· listen →
“It really all boils down to the fact that the universe is a quantum universe and it goes way beyond just frequency and phase and amplitude, and it all becomes quantum-oriented... everything is, uh, related to like a black hole. And in the center of the black hole is a singularity, and that singularity has all of the potentials that could happen in that particular circumstance.”
Don Estes: How Words and Waveforms Shape Reality · 14:58· listen →
“The responses were as profound or more profound than the kind of psychedelic insights you get, um, like oneness, connection, feeling like you've been channeled by God and all that stuff, as you would from a big dose of psychedelics.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 15:31· listen →
The companion guide
Reading about psychedelics & plant medicine is one thing. Changing it is another.
John’s companion guide turns what these conversations cover into something you can actually work through.
More moments worth hearing
Everything else these conversations turned up on this subject.
“It was in 2010 I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease called ulcerative colitis, and that's what left me housebound for almost a year, shitting blood like 40 times a day. It was hell.”
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs · 2:20
“So we have the ability to envision the future so we could say, hey, I'm gonna meet you at 2:30 and we're gonna do a podcast. Right. And we did that, you know, a couple weeks ago. So we were able to envision the future. But the side effect is then we have to worry about it.”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 2:15
“So in her case, she said, well, it's 100% chance I'm gonna get it. My mother and my sister both got it. And if I get it, I'm gonna die like they did.”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 9:05
“Here's what I say. So humans like to feel like they're in control. And so when you're in a startup business, you don't really feel like you have a whole lot of control here, right? So where our control comes from is through our choices.”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 22:55
“Well, that's, I was talking about this earlier, like when you have a fear reaction, it goes on. So fear was really designed to last only about 10 or 15 minutes. So like if we lived in a jungle, right? And I see a lion, ah, right? My fear reaction goes off.”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 17:46
“So spiritual is an interesting concept, right? My religion is Christianity, right? So I come from that perspective, but I've read a lot about Buddhism and Islam and all the other different major religions, Hinduism and stuff. And they all have some of the same basic tenets, which is, where'd you come from? Where are you going?”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 27:45
“So the answer then is compartmentalization, and that's the shoeboxes. So the more compartmentalized these problems are, the less overwhelming they become. So I got this problem. That by itself is not overwhelming. And I got this problem. That by itself is not overwhelming. It's only when I let them all merge together that I get into trouble. So what I say to people that are overwhelmed, don't lump, compartmentalize, use your shoeboxes.”
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress · 34:04
“So I quit my job that day. I felt it so strongly, John. I knew what was happening and I just didn't want to be there. I'd come off the street with complete strangers feeling a deep connection and I got into this workspace and I was like, this isn't my environment.”
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide · 10:22
“She said, yeah, I think we think of our neurological memory as the memory we have, but the body stores memories too, and pre-rational memories. And maybe you were just experiencing that.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 25:32
“Chip Conley says the CEO is chief executive officer, but also chief emotional officer. And when you think about that, and you think about the ripple effects of entrepreneurship, not necessarily financially, but emotionally, if we could get every apparent Blake or Tim or Steve Jobs or whoever to explore this... what an amazing, impactful ripple effect that really could be.”
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth · 29:52
“I think first and foremost, it's realizing that often what we want to work on is a blind spot. So we see how we show up and we know maybe we don't like that thing or we're uncomfortable or why do I hesitate? But to get to that area of our mind, it can feel like a blind spot. It can feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 4:55
“I was actually in the higher education space. So to do this was probably a shocker to everybody, but no, I was in corporate, very successful for over 30 years. And I got to the point where, like many people, there was a lot of burnout and to the point that it didn't quite feel as fulfilling.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 9:37
“What I see mostly is typically at an early age, some sense of need to seek the validation, sense of where that really served, and the continual path of seeking validation... And when you don't have a sense of, I'm good enough whether I do that or not, eventually you're left with, yeah, but what if I don't do that?”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 15:07
“I think what's good to know, because I don't think, I certainly would never sign up for something that you're losing control. You don't lose control. You're getting control back because we want to be in control.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 21:29
“I use the example of once you find out Santa Claus isn't real, you go, oh, you don't need to go back to every moment you ever thought he was real. You just now know he's not real. And your whole perspective is just, okay, he's not real now.”
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods · 33:37
“It's my body that will get this done. It's my body that will attract a good mate, get me love. And the truth is your body is an effect of your mind. So you've got to start with what I've come to call source and then spirit, because that spirit is really who you are.”
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf · 4:38
“When you're not doing it, your home life is falling apart, your relationships are falling apart, your health is falling apart, and you're not happy. Only when you're working real hard, right? Or doing drugs or doing alcohol or shopping. Addiction can take on many, many forms.”
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf · 9:01
“You need to let it go. What we consider the religious word, although it's being very, very accepted now in psychology, is that word forgiveness. And all forgiveness really is, it isn't something religious, it's really very scientific.”
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf · 25:02
“He'd put another one on like, I love you. And then freeze them, shave them very thin, and look at their crystalline structure through a dark field microscope. And what he saw was the one that said, I hate you, looked all distorted.”
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf · 20:59
“Remember, every thought system is founded on the cornerstone of what you think you are. A soul that fervently believes it is separate from God will create a building of thought based on that faith, and her mind will show her that she is right, even if it is not true. Ask the mind to show you the truth, it will. Ask it for anything else, and it will do it for you.”
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf · 30:31
Every episode on psychedelics & plant medicine
8 conversations, oldest to newest.
Niraj Naik on Breathwork, Hypoxia & Natural Highs
Intermittent hypoxia from breath holds triggers mitochondrial renewal and stem cell release, improving cellular energy and healing.
Dr. Gary Sprouse: Realistic Optimism to Beat Stress
Worry, guilt, and regret are side effects of the human skill of envisioning the future, not separate flaws to be eliminated.
David Kahl: From $100M CEO to Psilocybin Guide
Selling a company can trigger a harder identity crisis than building it, because founders often don't realize how fused their identity is with the business.
Psychedelics for Entrepreneurs: Scott Omelianuk on Growth
Successful entrepreneurs tend to dance at the edge of the dark triad (narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy) without going over it.
Hypnotherapy for Imposter Syndrome With Christina L. Woods
Imposter syndrome and other performance blocks often come from a mismatch between a person's internal sense of self and their external achievements.
The Spiritual Is Scientific with Rev. Tony Senf
The body is an effect of the mind and spirit, so entrepreneurs should prioritize source and spirit first for real effectiveness.
Conscious Leadership Through Psychedelic Journeys
Psilocybin mushroom journeys can act as a 'house cleaning mechanism' that releases habitual patterns and unresolved grief, trauma, or depression.
Don Estes: How Words and Waveforms Shape Reality
Waveforms have three components—frequency, phase, and amplitude—and phase, which is usually ignored in sound therapy, actually determines the shape and geometry of a wave.